[65a]
let us run it down with three—beauty, proportion, and truth, and let us say that these, considered as one, may more properly than all other components of the mixture be regarded as the cause, and that through the goodness of these the mixture itself has been made good.Protarchus
Quite right.Socrates
So now, Protarchus, any one would be able to judge about pleasure and wisdom, [65b] and to decide which of them is more akin to the highest good and of greater value among men and gods.Protarchus
That is clear; but still it is better to carry on the discussion to the end.Socrates
Let us, then, judge each of the three separately in its relation to pleasure and mind; for it is our duty to see to which of the two we shall assign each of them as more akin.Protarchus
You refer to beauty, truth, and measure?Socrates
Yes. Take truth first, Protarchus; take it and look at the three—mind, truth, [65c] and pleasure; take plenty of time, and answer to yourself whether pleasure or mind is more akin to truth.Protarchus
Why take time? For the difference, to my mind, is great. For pleasure is the greatest of impostors, and the story goes that in the pleasures of love, which are said to be the greatest, perjury is even pardoned by the gods, as if the pleasures were like children, utterly devoid of all sense. [65d] But mind is either identical with truth or of all things most like it and truest.Socrates
Next, then, consider measure in the same way, and see whether pleasure possesses more of it than wisdom, or wisdom than pleasure.Protarchus
That also is an easy thing to consider. For I think nothing in the world could be found more immoderate than pleasure and its transports, and nothing more in harmony with measure than mind and knowledge. [65e] Socrates
However, go on and tell about the third. Has mind or pleasure the greater share in beauty?Protarchus
But Socrates, no one, either asleep or awake, ever saw or knew wisdom or mind to be or become unseemly at any time or in any way whatsoever.Socrates
Right.Protarchus
But pleasures, and the greatest pleasures at that, when we see any one enjoying them and observe the ridiculous or utterly disgraceful element which accompanies them,
Quite right.Socrates
So now, Protarchus, any one would be able to judge about pleasure and wisdom, [65b] and to decide which of them is more akin to the highest good and of greater value among men and gods.Protarchus
That is clear; but still it is better to carry on the discussion to the end.Socrates
Let us, then, judge each of the three separately in its relation to pleasure and mind; for it is our duty to see to which of the two we shall assign each of them as more akin.Protarchus
You refer to beauty, truth, and measure?Socrates
Yes. Take truth first, Protarchus; take it and look at the three—mind, truth, [65c] and pleasure; take plenty of time, and answer to yourself whether pleasure or mind is more akin to truth.Protarchus
Why take time? For the difference, to my mind, is great. For pleasure is the greatest of impostors, and the story goes that in the pleasures of love, which are said to be the greatest, perjury is even pardoned by the gods, as if the pleasures were like children, utterly devoid of all sense. [65d] But mind is either identical with truth or of all things most like it and truest.Socrates
Next, then, consider measure in the same way, and see whether pleasure possesses more of it than wisdom, or wisdom than pleasure.Protarchus
That also is an easy thing to consider. For I think nothing in the world could be found more immoderate than pleasure and its transports, and nothing more in harmony with measure than mind and knowledge. [65e] Socrates
However, go on and tell about the third. Has mind or pleasure the greater share in beauty?Protarchus
But Socrates, no one, either asleep or awake, ever saw or knew wisdom or mind to be or become unseemly at any time or in any way whatsoever.Socrates
Right.Protarchus
But pleasures, and the greatest pleasures at that, when we see any one enjoying them and observe the ridiculous or utterly disgraceful element which accompanies them,
