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CHAPTER XXXII

The original question is now resumed, Socrates expressing himself disparagingly on poetical criticism. With some reluctance Protagoras consents to submit himself again to Socrates' interrogatory.

5. ἔστι μέντοὶ καὶ ἐμοὶ κτλ. Imitated in Hipp. Maior, 286 A, where Hippias says ἔστι γάρ μοι περὶ αὐτῶν πάγκαλος λόγος συγκείμενος καὶ ἄλλως εὖ διακείμενος καὶ τοῖς ὀνόμασι. Like Socrates in his recent exposition, Hippias looks upon poetical criticism as a legitimate field for the exercise of sophistry and wit.

6. ἐπιδείξω: see on ἐπιδειξάμενος in 328D

8. ὡμολογησάτην: in 338D where, however, the terms of the agreement are somewhat more stringent.

13. περὶ μὲν ᾀσμάτωνἐάσωμεν. Heindorf quotes Alc. I, 113D ἐάσαντες οὖν περὶ αὐτῶν σκοποῦσιν ὁπότερα συνοίσει πράξασιν.

16. καὶ γὰρ δοκεῖ μοι κτλ. This passage (from τὸ περὶ ποιήσεως down to κἂν πάνυ πολὺν οἶνον πίωσιν) is quoted by Athenaeus, 111. 51. It is doubtful whether Plato is here animadverting on Xenophon's Symposium, in which (2. 1 and 9. 3 ff) both a flute-girl and a dancing-girl appear: the words τοῖς συμποσίοις τοῖς τῶν φαύλων καὶ ἀγοραίων ἀνθρώπων would contain a very pretty hit at Xenophon, if the evidence for the allusion were more complete. There is a similar passage in the Symposium of Plato (176E) εἰσηγοῦμαι τὴν μὲν ἄρτι εἰσελθοῦσαν αὐλητρίδα χαίρειν ἐᾶν, αὐλοῦσαν ἑαυτῇ ἂν βούληται ταῖς γυναιξὶ ταῖς ἔνδον: this passage Athenaeus (XI. 112) cites in support of his theory of a literary rivalry between Plato and Xenophon.

18. ἀγοραίων: like the Latin circumforanei, ‘ἀγοραῖος, vel ut critici veteres volunt, ἀγόραιος, est ἐν ἀγορᾷ τεθραμμένος, s. qui totos dies forum conterit, quem ἀγορᾶς περίτριμμα Comicus appellat, vilis et ex ima plebe homo, Aristoph. Eqq. 181 ὁτιὴ πονηρὸς κἀξ ἀγορᾶς εἶ καὶ θρασύς: 214 τὰ δ᾽ ἄλλα σοι πρόσεστι δημαγωγικά, φωνὴ μιαρά, γέγονας κακῶς, ἀγόραιος εἶ’ (Heindorf).

21. τιμίας ποιοῦσι τὰς αὐλητρίδας: ‘run up the price of flute-players’: τὸ γὰρ σπάνιοντίμιον (Euthyd. 304B). Heindorf aptly quotes Xen. De Vect. IV. 10 χρυσίον ὄταν πολὺ παραφανῇ αὐτὸ μὲν ἀτιμότερον γίγνεται, τὸ δὲ ἀργύριον τιμιώτερον ποιεῖ.

25. καὶ πεπαιδευμένοι. So Athenaeus (III. 51) and the second hand in T: B and T read πεπαιδευμένοι. Schanz brackets πεπαιδευμένοι, but ὑπὸ ἀπαιδευσίας in l. 21 is in its favour.

οὐκ ἂν ἴδοιςψαλτρίας. Cf. Theaet. 173D δεῖπνα καὶ σὺν αὐλητρίσι κῶμοι, οὐδὲ ὄναρ πράττειν προσίσταται αὐτοῖς (i.e. τοῖς ὡς ἀληθῶς φιλοσόφοις).

30. κἂν πάνυ πολὺν οἶνον πίωσιν: like Socrates in the Symposium: see 220A, 223C. In Laws, I. 637B ff. Plato argues that wine properly used is the means of teaching self-control, since the man who will be σώφρων when drunk will a fortiori be σώφρων when sober: cf. ibid. II. 673E ff.

31. ἐὰν μὲν κτλ. μέν suggests that in different society the same would not be the case—an antithesis which is already expressed in 347CD. Cf. Apol. 17B εἰ μὲν γὰρ τοῦτο λέγουσιν, ὁμολογοίην ἂν ἔγωγε οὐ κατὰ τούτους εἶναι ῥήτωρ. For λάβωνται cf. (with Sauppe) Symp. 218A νέου ψυχῆς μὴ ἀφυοῦς ὅταν λάβωνται cf. (sc. οἱ ἐν φιλοσοφίᾳ λόγοι).

33. οὔτε ἀνερέσθαιἐπαγόμενοί τε: for the sentiment see on 329Aabove: for οὔτετε on 309B for αὐτούς after οὕς on 313A ἐπάγεσθαι is the regular word for ‘cite’, e.g. Rep. II. 364C μάρτυρας ποιητὰς ἐπάγονται.

36. ἀδυνατοῦσιν: , not in B and T, was restored by Heindorf: it has since been found in a Vienna MS.

38. ἐῶσιν: the subject is supplied from ἀνδρῶν οἷοίπερ ἡμῶν οἱ πολλοί φασιν εἶναι.

41. καταθεμένους: for the asyndeton see on 330A Both here and in Tim. 59C κατατίθεσθαι is not used in the sense of laying aside for good, but rather (as generally) putting away to be resumed again. ‘Putting the poets on their shelves’ would give the effect of the Greek.

45. παρέχειν: see on συγκαθεῖναι in 336Aabove.

51. καὶ νῦν: as before 336B

54. ἵνα τούτῳ μὲν ταῦτα συνειδῶμεν. Symp. 193E εἰ μὴ συνῄδη Σωκράτει τε καὶ Ἀγάθωνι δεινοῖς οὖσι περὶ τὰ ἐρωτικά. In σύνοιδα ἐμαυτῷ ἀγαθῷ ὄντι συν- goes with ἐμαυτῷ—I am conscious with myself that I am good—by the convenient fiction which separates the observing ego from the observed. Cases where the dative is not a reflexive pronoun are later in development and presuppose only knowledge about, not knowledge along with, the object.

56. ὥς γέ μοι. B has ὥστε μοι, T ὡς γ᾽ ἐμοί (sic). There is no occasion for the emphatic form of the pronoun.

58. τῶν ἄλλων σχεδόν τι. σχεδόν τι need not be accompanied by πάντες: compare Phaedo, 59C ἄλλος δέ τις παρῆν; σχεδόν τι οἶμαι τούτους παραγενέσθαι.

59. προὐτράπετο. No other example of the aorist middle of προτρέπω is quoted from any Attic author, but ἐτραπόμην is common, e.g. Apol. 21B μόγις πάνυ ἐπὶ ζήτησιν αὐτοῦ τοιαύτην τινὰ ἐτραπόμην.

60. ἐκέλευεν: the imperfect of this verb is used in narrative style for the aorist.

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hide References (17 total)
  • Commentary references from this page (17):
    • Plato, Republic, 364c
    • Plato, Apology, 17b
    • Plato, Apology, 21b
    • Plato, Theaetetus, 173d
    • Plato, Symposium, 193e
    • Plato, Symposium, 218a
    • Plato, Protagoras, 330a
    • Plato, Euthydemus, 304b
    • Plato, Protagoras, 309b
    • Plato, Protagoras, 313a
    • Plato, Protagoras, 328d
    • Plato, Protagoras, 329a
    • Plato, Protagoras, 336a
    • Plato, Protagoras, 336b
    • Plato, Protagoras, 338d
    • Plato, Protagoras, 347c
    • Plato, Timaeus, 59c
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