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-- ἐλέγομεν: ‘as we were trying to say at the outset,’ i.e. of this discussion 424 A. No specific reference to an earlier part of the dialogue is intended: at all events II 377 B is not in point. According to Plato παιδιά should—(to borrow a saying of Aristotle's) —παιδεύειν πρὸς τὴν πολιτείαν—educate children in the spirit of their commonwealth: Laws 798 B ff. Conversely, Aristotle reminds us, education is itself the older boys' rattle (Pol. Θ 6. 1340^{b} 30). It should be noted that παιδιᾶς (cf. παίξειν in 425 A) refers like παιδιᾶς in D above to music; if music is to be a pastime, it must be one which is ἔννομος. In ἐννομωτέρου and παρανόμου there may also be a play on the musical sense of νόμος: cf. 424 D note

τοιούτων: viz. παρανόμων.

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