[195a]
either in war or in anything else.Laches
How strangely he talks, Socrates!Socrates
What is it that makes you say that, Laches?Laches
What is it? Why, surely wisdom is distinct from courage.Socrates
Well, Nicias denies that.Laches
He does indeed, to be sure: that is where he just babbles.Socrates
Then let us instruct and not abuse him.Nicias
No, it seems to me, Socrates, that Laches wants to have it proved that I am talking nonsense, because he was proved [195b] a moment ago to be in the same case himself.Laches
Quite so, Nicias, and I will try to make it evident. You are talking nonsense: for instance, do not doctors know what is to be dreaded in disease? Or do you suppose that the courageous know this? Or do you call doctors courageousNicias
No, not at all.Laches
Nor, I fancy, farmers either. And yet they, I presume, know what is to be dreaded in farming, and every other skilled worker knows what is to be dreaded and dared in his own craft; but they are none the more [195c] courageous for that.Socrates
What is Laches saying, in your opinion, Nicias? There does seem to be something in it.Nicias
Yes, there is something, only it is not true.Socrates
How so?Nicias
Because he thinks that doctors know something more, in treating sick persons, than how to tell what is healthy and what diseased. This, I imagine, is all that they know: but to tell whether health itself is to be dreaded by anyone rather than sickness, —do you suppose, Laches, that this is within a doctor's knowledge? Do you not think that for many it is better [195d] that they should never arise from their bed of sickness? Pray tell me, do you say that in every case it is better to live? Is it not often preferable to be dead?Laches
I do think that is so.Nicias
And do you think that the same things are to be dreaded by those who were better dead, as by those who had better live?Laches
No, I do not.Nicias
Well, do you attribute the judgement of this matter to doctors or to any other skilled worker except him who has knowledge of what is to be dreaded and what is not—the man whom I call courageous?Socrates
Do you comprehend his meaning, Laches? [195e] Laches
I do: it seems to be the seers whom he calls the courageous: for who else can know for which of us it is better to be alive than dead? And yet, Nicias, do you avow yourself to be a seer, or to be neither a seer nor courageous?Nicias
What! Is it now a seer, think you, who has the gift of judging what is to be dreaded and what to be dared?Laches
That is my view: who else could it be?Nicias
Much rather the man of whom I speak, my dear sir: for the seer's business is to judge only the signs of what is yet to come—whether a man is to meet with death or disease or loss of property,
How strangely he talks, Socrates!Socrates
What is it that makes you say that, Laches?Laches
What is it? Why, surely wisdom is distinct from courage.Socrates
Well, Nicias denies that.Laches
He does indeed, to be sure: that is where he just babbles.Socrates
Then let us instruct and not abuse him.Nicias
No, it seems to me, Socrates, that Laches wants to have it proved that I am talking nonsense, because he was proved [195b] a moment ago to be in the same case himself.Laches
Quite so, Nicias, and I will try to make it evident. You are talking nonsense: for instance, do not doctors know what is to be dreaded in disease? Or do you suppose that the courageous know this? Or do you call doctors courageousNicias
No, not at all.Laches
Nor, I fancy, farmers either. And yet they, I presume, know what is to be dreaded in farming, and every other skilled worker knows what is to be dreaded and dared in his own craft; but they are none the more [195c] courageous for that.Socrates
What is Laches saying, in your opinion, Nicias? There does seem to be something in it.Nicias
Yes, there is something, only it is not true.Socrates
How so?Nicias
Because he thinks that doctors know something more, in treating sick persons, than how to tell what is healthy and what diseased. This, I imagine, is all that they know: but to tell whether health itself is to be dreaded by anyone rather than sickness, —do you suppose, Laches, that this is within a doctor's knowledge? Do you not think that for many it is better [195d] that they should never arise from their bed of sickness? Pray tell me, do you say that in every case it is better to live? Is it not often preferable to be dead?Laches
I do think that is so.Nicias
And do you think that the same things are to be dreaded by those who were better dead, as by those who had better live?Laches
No, I do not.Nicias
Well, do you attribute the judgement of this matter to doctors or to any other skilled worker except him who has knowledge of what is to be dreaded and what is not—the man whom I call courageous?Socrates
Do you comprehend his meaning, Laches? [195e] Laches
I do: it seems to be the seers whom he calls the courageous: for who else can know for which of us it is better to be alive than dead? And yet, Nicias, do you avow yourself to be a seer, or to be neither a seer nor courageous?Nicias
What! Is it now a seer, think you, who has the gift of judging what is to be dreaded and what to be dared?Laches
That is my view: who else could it be?Nicias
Much rather the man of whom I speak, my dear sir: for the seer's business is to judge only the signs of what is yet to come—whether a man is to meet with death or disease or loss of property,
