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[45d] those who deny its existence altogether say that it is.1

I think I understand you.

Presently, Protarchus, you will show that more clearly, for I want you to answer a question. Do you see greater pleasures—I do not mean greater in number, but greater in intensity and degree—in riotous living or in a life of self-restraint? Be careful about your reply.

I understand you, and I see that there is a great difference. For the self-restrained are always held in check by the advice of the proverbial expression

1 This paradox means “what those say it is who deny that it is really pleasure.”

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