previous next
[410a] but of those who are not, such as are defective in body they will suffer to die and those who are evil-natured and incurable1 in soul they will themselves2 put to death.” “This certainly,” he said, “has been shown to be the best thing for the sufferers themselves and for the state.” “And so your youths,” said I, “employing that simple music which we said engendered sobriety will, it is clear, guard themselves against falling into the need of the justice of the court-room.” “Yes,” he said. “And will not our musician, pursuing the same trail [410b] in his use of gymnastics, if he please, get to have no need of medicine save when indispensable3?” “I think so.” “And even the exercises and toils of gymnastics he will undertake with a view to the spirited part of his nature4 to arouse that rather than for mere strength, unlike ordinary athletes, who treat5 diet and exercise only as a means to muscle.” “Nothing could be truer,” he said. “Then may we not say, Glaucon,” said I, “that those who established6 an education in music and gymnastics [410c] had not the purpose in view that some attribute to them in so instituting, namely to treat the body by one and the soul by the other?” “But what?” he said. “It seems likely,” I said, “that they ordained both chiefly for the soul's sake.” “How so?” “Have you not observed,” said I, “the effect on the disposition of the mind itself7 of lifelong devotion to gymnastics with total neglect of music? Or the disposition of those of the opposite habit?” “In what respect do you mean?” he said. [410d] “In respect of savagery and hardness or, on the other hand, of softness and gentleness?” “I have observed,” he said, “that the devotees of unmitigated gymnastics turn out more brutal than they should be and those of music softer than is good for them.” “And surely,” said I, “this savagery is a quality derived from the high-spirited element in our nature, which, if rightly trained, becomes brave, but if overstrained, would naturally become hard and harsh.” “I think so,” he said. “And again, is not the gentleness [410e] a quality which the philosophic nature would yield? This if relaxed too far would be softer than is desirable but if rightly trained gentle and orderly?” “That is so.” “But our requirement, we say,8 is that the guardians should possess both natures.” “It is.” “And must they not be harmoniously adjusted to one another?” “Of course.” “And the soul of the man thus attuned is sober and brave?”

1 Only the incurable suffer a purely exemplary and deterrent punishment in this world or the next. Cf. 615 E, Protagoras 325 A, Gorgias 525 C, Phaedo 113 E.

2 ultro, as opposed to ἐάσουσιν.

3 Cf. 405 C. Plato always allows for the limitation of the ideal by necessity.

4 The welfare of the soul is always the prime object for Plato. (Cf. 591 C) But he cannot always delay to correct ordinary speech in this sense. The correction of 376 E here is of course not a change of opinion, and it is no more a criticism of Isocrates, Antidosis 180-185, than it is of Gorgias 464 B, or Soph. 228 E, or Republic 521 E.

5 μεταχειρίζονται: this reading of Galen is more idiomatic than the MS.μεταχειριεῖται. Where English says “he is not covetous of honor as other men are,” Greek says “he (is) not as other men are covetous of honor.”

6 Plato half seriously attributes his own purposes to the founders. Cf. 405-406 on medicine and Philebus 16 C on dialectics.

7 For the thought cf. Euripides Suppl. 882 f. and Polybius's account of the effect of the neglect of music on the Arcadians (iv. 20).

8 Cf. 375 C. With Plato's doctrine of the two temperaments cf. the distinction of quick-wits and hard-wits in Ascham's Schoolmaster. Ascham is thinking of Plato, for he says: “Galen saith much music marreth men's manners; and Plato hath a notable place of the same thing in his book De rep., well marked also and excellently translated by Tully himself.

Creative Commons License
This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 United States License.

An XML version of this text is available for download, with the additional restriction that you offer Perseus any modifications you make. Perseus provides credit for all accepted changes, storing new additions in a versioning system.

load focus Notes (James Adam)
load focus Greek (1903)
hide Places (automatically extracted)

View a map of the most frequently mentioned places in this document.

Sort places alphabetically, as they appear on the page, by frequency
Click on a place to search for it in this document.
Tully (Irish Republic) (1)

Download Pleiades ancient places geospacial dataset for this text.

hide Display Preferences
Greek Display:
Arabic Display:
View by Default:
Browse Bar: